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Hi everybody. Welcome to Read Science in
conjunction with Scientific American
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my name is Joanne Manaster
and I am a blogger with
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Scientific American and along with my
cohost Jeff Shaumeyer we like to
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take a little bit of time out
every once and awhile to speak with
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a science author of either great books or
blogs or just something for tv
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and today we are very fortunate to
have our guest
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David Quammen who is an author
and journalist who has written
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I read fifteen books but I guess
twelve of them are non fiction
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the include "Song of the DoDo"
"The Reluctant Mr. Darwin"
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and most recently "Spillover"
which is a work on science history
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and human impacts on emerging diseases
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particularly the viral diseases
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it has been recognized on seven
national and international awards lists
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and he has also published a few hundred
pieces of short non fiction featured
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articles essays and columns
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and all the places we are used
to seeing our great science writers
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which included Harper's,
National Geographic, Outside, Esquire
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The Atlantic, Rolling Stone
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he occasionally writes op-eds
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for the new york times
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and reviews books for the new york times
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as well. he has been honored
with an academy award
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from the american
acadamy of arts and letters
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he is a three time recipient of
the national magazine award
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he is a contributing writer
for national geographic
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and he travels often usually
to wild and remote places
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he is currently in ??? Montana
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right now if you watch the weather channel
at all and you might be
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catching his video series
, based on the book "Spillover"
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Called "The Virus Hunters"
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and its base don stories from the book
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so welcome David
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(david speaking)
Thank you Joanne very good to be with you
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Hi Jeff, nice to be part of this
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(Jeff speaking) Its a real pleasure to be talking with you
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and I hope it doesn't make you feel old
or something but I will say I was reading
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your books when I was three years old
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But I checked the list to make sure
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and I have read all of your books
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I've enjoyed all of your books
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I'm just starting "Spillover"
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So that is my latest one to enjoy
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I have a little story,
if Joanne reminds me later
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to tell about a personal connection
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But since we are going to be talking
some about this book
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"Spillover" and about the video
series on the weather channel
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which is called "The Virus Hunters"
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I want to throw you the easy ball and say
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lets start by talking about
this idea of spillover
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what it is, what zoonatic
is a new word for
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everyone to learn
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and why its important so
we have some context
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for these things we are going to discuss
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(David speaking) Yeah.
That is sort of the ABC's of this
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whole subject
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The book is about zoonatic diseases
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um, very simply defined
as Zoonosis is an animal
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infection that is transmissible to humans
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that could mean a virus or a bacterium
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or a fungus or preon
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or worm or what else does that leave
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a protozoan, a protist
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all the things that infect
humans and other animals
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so zoonosis is an animal infection
transmissible to humans
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and if it causes symptoms
if it causes problems
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once that virus or whatever
it is is transmitted
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then we call that a zoonatic disease
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Most of I think the figure
is around 60 percent according to
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different accounts, of the infectious
diseases known among humans
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are zoonatic disease
in the strict and sort of
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imminence, in the longer
term you could argue that
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all infectious diseases of
humans are ultimately
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zoonatic because we are a
relatively young species.
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and even our old diseases had to come
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from somewhere else
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originally
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the book is all about the spillover of
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infectious agents from non human animals
into humans
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causing in some cases dramatic disease
gruesome pandemics and in the
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current years seemingly causing an
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increasing drum beat of
new emerging diseases
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(Jeff speaking) You had a log which
I had memorized with all of the
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things that have been in the news lately
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like SARS and Ebola and HIV
and a much longer list than that
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all of these are zoonatic
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(David speaking) That's right yeah
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these influenzas are all zoonatic
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all of the influenzas emerge ultimately
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from wild aquatic birds
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there are things, little known things
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with names like nepovirus
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and hendra virus disease that come out
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of animals and get into humans
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and cause death on a small scale
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but in a very dramatic way
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you mentioned ebola, SARS, MERS
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out of Saudi Arabia
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Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (MERS)
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is also a zoonosis
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so virtually all of these scary new diseases that we hear about
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that we read about in the headlines
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are zoonatic diseases
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because the fact that they are new means
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they have come from somewhere else
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and gotten into humans and
they turn out to be really
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destructive agents once they are in humans
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so in some cases no just very destructive
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but also very dangerously transmissible
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(Joanne speaking) Right so Ebola of
course is one that is real well known for
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being very transmissible and very
devastating but in short loops
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it burns itself out so do
you want to talk a little bit about that?
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(David speaking) that's right, Ebola
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Ebola has a strange reputation
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its a very strange dramatic,
gruesome disease
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Ebola virus disease
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but its not as preternatural
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or quiet as gruesome, quiet as bloody
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as the public has been led to believe
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by some of the books that came out
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ten and twenty years ago
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the hot zone a riveting book
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when it came out twenty years ago
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I read it, a lot of other people read it
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and in some cases it was the first thing
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that anyone learned about ebola virus
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I have been back and
forth a little bit with
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Richard Creston on this,
I don't want to beat up
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on him. But i think even he admits now
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that there was a bit of exageration
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a bit of I won't call it poetic license
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but it was portrayed as
almost a preternatural
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virus that caused horrific bleeding
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in virtually every case,
people were bleeding out
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people were melting down from this virus
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well the experts have told me that
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is really not the case with ebola
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it is a horrible disease
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it kills between 60 and 90 percent of the
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people it infects
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depending on the species of ebola virus
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depending on the circumstances
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so its a terrible disease
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but its not preternatural
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it causes organ shut down
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it causes something called
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disseminated intravascular coagulation
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which is a blood symptom
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that can in some cases lead to
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unusual bleeding but
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doesn't necessarily in most cases
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it causes a lot of vomitting
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and diarrhea and it
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causes people to die for those reasons
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but its not very transmissible from
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human to human
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as you said Joanne it burns out
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it burns so hot it kills people
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so quickly it makes them very sick
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so quickly and kills them if its going to
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kill them so quickly
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that it doesn't spread as well as
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some others
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also its not an airborne virus
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its not transmissible on a sneeze
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or a cough
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the way the influenzas and some of
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the coronaviruses are
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so ebola virus is the most infamous
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of all these things
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and its a terrible disease if you are an African villager
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but its not the highest on the list
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of global threats
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(Joanne speaking) So what would
be highest
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on the list of global threats?
I'm going to guess
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its a flu, but..
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(David speaking) Well flu, a flu
would be in that group
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Near the end of my
research for "Spillover"
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I asked some of the experts that I'd
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been talking to over the yeras
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what do you think the next
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big one will look like?
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what should we be watchign for?
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and they said
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well there will be a next big one
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its inevitable that there will be
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another large pandemic whether it kills
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tens of thousands,
hundreds of thousands or
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millions of people,
depends on circumstances and
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how we respond, but,
something like that will come
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along it will almost
certainly be a zoanatic agent
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it will come out of non human
animals, it will almost certainly be a
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virus, it will probably be a
single stranded RNA virus
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because they replicate less reliably
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they mutate, they have
a high rate of mutations so
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they are very changeable,
the single stranded RNA viruses
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very changeable and
therefore very adaptable
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and then you look down
that list of single stranded RNA
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viruses of zoonotic
origin and the experts say
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well that brings us to the influenzas
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the coronaviruses the
paramyxoviruses so things
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like SARS represent good scary paradigms
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for what the next big one might
look like SARS
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or the influenzas or some other
sort of coronavirus
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and thats the reason people have
take MERS so seriously
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this new virus out of the Saudi Arabia
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because it falls in that small
group that rank highest
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on the watch list of possible
next really big bad ones
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(Joanne speaking) types of viruses so has,
now of course common sections
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are really hard to gather, but has the
middle east been dealing with this
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appropriately? Because now we do
have our first case, someone who traveled
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to Saudi Arabia has ended up in Indiana
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then diagnosed with MERS and
my understanding is that at this point
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human transmission is low, and they are
seeing a lot of the cases might come from
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camel milk or camel meat and otherwise
implicating camels but maybe bats
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you know bats seem to be a new reservoir,
but yeah you could expand a little bit on
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MERS in the middle east?
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(David speaking) Yeah well as of this
morning a message that I got yesterday
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MERS now stands at 411 cases
with 112 deaths.
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so that's a case fatality rate
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(Joanne speaking) of like 35% or so?
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(David speaking) I think its about 27%. So
that's high but its any where
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near as high as Ebola. Its higher
actually though than SARS was
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SARS' case fatality rate was around
10% if I recall correctly
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something like 8,000 infected around
the world with eight hundred fatalities
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so this has got a higher case
fatality rate than SARS
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but its not nearly as transmissible
human to human as SARS
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I gather there does seem to be some,
at least suspected human to human
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transmission. I think as of the report
yesterday, i think there
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were fifteen new cases and of the fifteen
new cases, seven of those
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were among contacts, personal contacts
of people who had already been confirmed
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as having MERS. (Joanne speaking)
Like Hospital workers or family
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(David speaking) yeah, so the
secondary cases, seemingly
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secondary cases, but I don't think
that has been proven that they
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are secondary cases because
there is always a possibility
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that these secondary cases could have
shared situations with the primary case
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and they might have been
exposed directly to the reservoir
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host, or the amplifier host of the
virus rather than getting it from humans.
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so I'm tossing these terms around,
reservoir host and amplifier host
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the reservoir host is the species of
creature or maybe in some cases several
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species of creatures in which
the virus or the other pathogen lives
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endemically, permanently, inconspicuously,
without causing symptoms
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that's its permanent residence. If it is
something that kills humans as soon as it
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gets into us then it has to live
somewhere else
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over the longer term to survive
that's the reservoir host.
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An amplifier host is an animal or a
species of animal that serves as an
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intermediator, in the case of for
instance Hendra virus in Australia It is
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known that the virus resides in fruit
bats, three species of fruit bats
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it spills out of fruit bats, and gets
into horses, and then it really rampages
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through horses it causes horrible symptoms
fast death, high viral loads, a lot of
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viral shedding in horses and then it
gets into the people who take care of
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horses veterinarians and horse trainers
and people that's been the pattern
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of the Hendra virus. Now with MERS in
Saudi Arabia I think there is some
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suspicion that the virus might have it's
reservoir host in bats, but that it
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has a presence in camels as an amplifier
host and that humans are perhaps getting
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it from camels and not directly from
bats. But the camels may be
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getting it from bats, but there
is new work that has just been
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published in about the last week, online.
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By a group of who the senior
author is Ian Lipkin,
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Mailman School of Public Health at
Colombia, who is a brilliant
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laboratory researcher on these emerging
viruses, and Ian Lipkin and his group,
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if I recall correctly, found that based
on molecular phylogenetics, this virus
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has been circulating in camels since
about 1992, there is
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enough divergence among the
different strains
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found in camels in Saudi Arabia, possibly
also Egypt to suggest that its not just
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spilling over day by day from bats into
camels, and then from camels into people
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but its perhaps circulating as new
infection, but as an infection that
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has become endemic in camels
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as I say, don't hold me to every detail
of what I've just said, but that's what I
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recall seeing in this new report that
I just saw online, a few days ago
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(Joanne speaking) So this brings a couple
questions,
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one is from someone who is asking
a question here from our audience
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they said, "Many of zoonatic diseases
examined and spill over
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need bats as reservoir hosts
what impact does
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bat habitat destruction have in this
puzzle, and that is one thing if
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you read the book, you will leave going,
I think I should be
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afraid of bats. (laughing).
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(David speaking) Well I hope I didn't
add to the undeserved bad reputation
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that bats have, they have enough PR
problems. And I do not
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want to demonize bats.
I wanted to describe the situation.
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(Joanne speaking) I thought it was
realistic though,
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I didn't feel like there was any
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overt, attempt at demonetization. But
they just kept coming up again and again.
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(David speaking) But yes, yeah there is a
strong pattern that
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in many many cases these
new zoonatic diseases have been
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found to have their reservoir
host in one species
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or other, of bats. So that scientists
started asking why bats? Why do they
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seem to be disproportionally
indicated as reservoir hosts?
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And there are a couple of possible
explanations for that.
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One is that bats are a very
very diverse group of animals
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There are lots of species
of bat, I think it is one of
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every four species of mammal
on planet earth is a species of bat
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so they are disproportionally represented
in the diversity of mammal species
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Also many of them live long life
times they live to be 18 or 20 years old
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They're very social, they live in huge
aggregations
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So you put those things together
long life spans and massive colonies
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at very very close proximity to one
another and you have potentially
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very good circumstances for incubating
viruses, for allowing viruses
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to live and persist in a population of
animals
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(Jeff speaking) and they travel widely too right?
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(David speaking) and they travel widely.
They move around, and not just in
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two dimensions, but in three dimensions
they occupy a big volume of space
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so all of those things combine to create
this pattern wherein a large number
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of these new diseases are found to have
their reservoir hosts in bats
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and SARS which is a coronavirus, belongs
to the coronavirus family
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was found in several species of bat
in southern China, and because of that
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bats were high on the list of
hypothetical reservoirs for MERS
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because it also is a coronavirus not
too closely related to SARS but within
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the same family anyway. So some of the
people I write about in my book were
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involved in doing field work in Saudi
Arabia. Testing bats,
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sampling bats, looking for evidence of
this new MERS coronavirus
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and they found some. They found that
there was evidence of the virus in bats
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but they didn't find such a prevalence
in bats, and such a high level of virus
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as to answer the question definitively
where this virus has it's reservoir host
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but the original question was about
habitat destruction. Let me loop back
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to that before I chatter on too much more
about bats. The question was absolutely
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right that habitat destruction causes
bats to move closer to humans
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at least in some cases, this is true in
Australia, where the great inland
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eucalyptus forests have in broad
areas been cut down, been chained down
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been clear cut for agriculture and
human development of various different
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sorts, and those eucalyptus forests
were habitat for some of the fruit bats
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that carry Hendra virus, among others
and those fruit bats are now coming into
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the city. To Sydney, to the botanical
gardens, to the parks in Sydney.
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They're coming into orchards along the
eastern coast of Australia up in the
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sub tropical Australia. They're coming
closer to humans. And that may be
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the reason that suddenly this new virus
known as Hendra, started getting into
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horses and then humans back in
1994. In Malaysia
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likewise, the destruction of Malaysian
tropical forests
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seems to have pushed some species
of bats
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closer to human orchards
places where humans are
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growing fruit trees, on which the bats
can feed
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these are big tropical fruit eating bats
that they actually eat fruit, and in some
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cases blossoms and nectar.
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So they go looking for those
things
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and if people have planted
orchards, then those will attract
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bats when the bats are driven
out of their natural habitat
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and if the orchards happen
to be planted on pig farms
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around pigsties, around even
overhanging pigsties
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as was the case in northern
Malaysia then that
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represents a great opportunity
for the virus to spill over
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down from these bats down
into the pig pens
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getting into the pigs, this
happened with nepovirus
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causing an outbreak of this
disease in pigs
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and then it passed from pigs
into pig farmers, pig butchers
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pork handlers, and ended up
killing more than 100 people
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in the pork industry in
Malaysia
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(Jeff speaking) Well habitat destruction
is a big part of your answer
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to the question of why do we think
we've seen so many of these
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zoonatic outbreaks in the last
few decades, is that a real
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phenomenon, or are we imagining it
and it seems that it's real and
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that there are several reasons and that
is one of them
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(David speaking) Absolutely yes. Yeah
Habitat destruction
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the fact that we are pushing
into the highly diverse
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ecosystems where lots of
different kinds of species
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including lots of different
kinds of viruses live
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We're building roads and
timber camps
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and mines, and settlements
in the central African forests
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in the forests of southeast Asia
in the forests of South America
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and we're disrupting ecosystems
we're destroying habitat
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we're killing and eating the
native animals, and in some
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cases we're capturing them and
shipping them to live animal markets
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in other countries. We're doing all these
sorts of things that are disruptive of
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native species, and that bring
us into close contact with
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native species both animal and
plant, but I think we're talking
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mostly about animals. And those
animals, those different kinds of
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animals carry different kinds of
viruses. So we offer opportunity
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to those viruses, to change hosts
to spill over, to leap from one species
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of animal into this other species,
that happens to be
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humans. And that turns out
to be, as a said in the book
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it turns out to be a great
career move, if you are a virus
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and you infect some sort of
endangered species of primate in
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central Africa, and you manage to
jump from that endangered species
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of primate into this other kind
of primate, of which it turns out
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there are 7 billion individuals
all moving around the planet
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closely interacting with one another
then you've just made a great
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career move. And that is what
the HIV-1 virus did.
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(Jeff speaking) Right. If Joanne
will let me there is some lurking
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kind of communication issues
I wanted to
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(Joanne speaking) although quickly
since he ended with AIDS
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you do, it looks like your last
chapter of your book is going to
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be turned into its own standalone
book right?
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We want to make sure our watchers
here are aware of that.
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(David speaking) Thank you Joanne, yeah.
Actually the second last chapter of my
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book I think of it as the crescendo
of "Spillover" its a long,
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about 110 page chapter on the
ecological origins of the AIDS
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pandemic. How a chimpanzee
virus, spilled over from a single
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chimpanzee into a single human,
back around 1908, give or take
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a margin of error, in the southeastern
corner of Cameroon, we know this
-
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now from good molecular work.
-
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and spread across the world as
what we now know as the AIDS
-
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pandemic. So I tell the story
of these new scientific findings
-
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worked on by some wonderful
scientists
-
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Michael Worobey out of Tuscon,
and Beatrice Hahn of
-
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University of Pennsylvania and
one of their colleagues
-
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that have developed this new
and radically unexpected story
-
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of the origins of AIDS.
so I tell that whole story in my
-
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penultimate chapter, which
is titled "The chimp and the river"
-
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and my publisher WW Norton
has decided that they want to
-
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in addition of publishing a paperback
version of "Spillover" in the coming
-
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I think this winter, they will publish
"The Chimp and the River" as a
-
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small free standing paperback book
itself with a new introduction by me.
-
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(Joanne speaking) I actually
think that's a great move
-
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because some people will be
intimidated by a book of this size
-
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so I think just having the AIDS, and so
many people have questions about AIDS
-
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(David speaking) Well good, well I hope
you are right. We think that makes
-
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sense too. Now it is, "Spillover" is a
long book, I like to think of it as a
-
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concise long book.
-
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(Joanne speaking) It is, it's excellent.
-
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(David speaking) So the AIDS story
is very important, and very
-
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counter-intuitive, very different
form what most people think they
-
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know about the history of AIDS
so it seemed like a good idea to
-
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put it out as a free standing book.
-
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(Joanne speaking) Be sure to promote it.
-
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(David speaking) Yeah.
-
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(Jeff speaking) So there are lots of
things we were talking about
-
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Ebola, and how it may have been
over sensationalized and there
-
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are several issues, I think about how to
get precise and accurate information
-
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to people who need to know about it,
and I thought, one starting place I
-
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was thinking about when I was reading
the first chapter about
-
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Hendra virus and how it had moved to
some humans through horses
-
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and that whole thing, and you were
talking to a racehorse trainer,
-
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I pictured it in a bar or something,
and a little bit of what he had to say
-
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he gives you his perspective on the
Hendra virus.
-
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"They shouldn't allow it! They should
get rid of those bats! Because
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of the disease. They hang upside down
and they shit on themselves, and then
-
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they shit on people! It's backwards
let the people shit on them!
-
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Yeah but those sentimental greenies
won't allow it!"
-
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and I thought boy, but there is so
much mixed up in his head
-
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but how do you break through?
There are several ways to push this
-
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but how do you break through those
attitudes? How do you get in there?
-
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How do you do some instruction?
Some useful learning
-
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and understanding without
being sensational
-
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or, everyone has to make
a choice. I think that
-
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one choice is sort of to be
calm and very thorough
-
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and some people will see it and
you can use materials
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and that is sort of the way
I'm thinking of spillover and
-
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your long conciseness, and you
always approach things with a
-
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thoroughness, that's not boring but
is very important to have
-
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and I think that is one way to keep
people calm
-
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at least the ones who hear the message
and not everyone
-
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is going to hear a message.
-
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Is that a choice? How do you decided
these things, how do you avoid
-
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sensationalism? Or should you?
-
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(David speaking) Well yes, I think
you should
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this is potentially a very
sensational subject
-
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maybe even objectively you
could say it is
-
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a lot of people die in this book
there is a lot of gruesome
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misery. And it is important
I think to convey that because
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these viruses many of them are
very very dangerous and the subject
-
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is important. So it is dramatic,
and I wanted to make it dramatic
-
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so that people would pay
attention. But I did not want to
-
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make it melodramatic.
I did not want to exaggerate
-
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You don't need to exaggerate
these things in order
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for them to be arrestingly scary
-
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So I stayed very close, tried
to stay very close to accurate
-
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and precise scientific information as it
was present in the
-
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journal literature.
-
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When I write a book I travel alot
-
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I talk to a lot of scientists
-
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I try to spend time in the field,
with field scientists
-
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and I also read huge piles
of journal articles I read
-
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a lot of journal articles
-
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and so that is where some
of the information
-
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a lot of the information, comes
from
-
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the hard facts. And if they have
appeared in peer reviewed
-
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journal articles then you can
presumably rely on them
-
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So that's where I get a lot of my
hard facts about for instance
-
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Hendra virus or Ebola virus
-
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When I report from the field
I hold myself to a very strict
-
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standard of accuracy.
-
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In terms for instance of
quotes, if I don't get
-
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a quote verbatim in my notebook,
either because
-
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I'm scribbling fast, or
on my recorder because I'm taping
-
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then I don't assemble my best
recollection of what
-
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somebody said and then put it in
quotation marks later on
-
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For instance you mentioned that
racehorse trainer
-
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we were in a bar, we were at
a race course we were in a
-
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member's lounge of a race course
in Australia
-
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and I had brought in my
veterinarian friend who dealt with
-
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this disease. A wonderful fellow
named Peter Reid.
-
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So he took me to the races
one day , and took me to the
-
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member's lounge and I met
the owner's and trainers along
-
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the stables and in the back
-
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I was behind the scenes,
and I was his guest
-
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and he introduced me to this
famous Australian race trainer
-
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who had won all the big races
in Australia
-
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his name was Bart Cummings, and
he was quite a character
-
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but we were standing there
with beers in our hands
-
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and he hears that I am a writer,
following the threat of the story
-
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of Hendra virus. And he starts to
give me an earful you know.
-
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Like "Oh they should kill all
the bats etc etc"
-
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Well, I'm certainly not
taping him, and I'm really not
-
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in a situation to be scribbling
in my notebook, it would seem
-
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peculiar and rude. I think I did
but a few things in my notebook
-
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but I did not get his
tirade verbatim
-
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and if you look back at that
passage in the book
-
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unless I am hugely mistaken
there are no quotation marks
-
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around what he said, I am
essentially paraphrasing him
-
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maybe I put it in italics
or I did something to indicate
-
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this is the essence of what this guy
said but I'm not claiming
-
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that this a verbatim quote
-
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(Jeff speaking) Oh sure. Sure. Well it
certainly gave the flavor
-
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of the communication issues
some people might try to
-
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directly go at some of his
misconceptions
-
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there is an awful lot,
he's got some of the truth in there
-
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we learned about the bats and things
he knows bats are involved but
-
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its because he has come up with this
idea that bats hand upside down
-
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so they shit on themselves
then somehow that causes the
-
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disease (coughing) what do you do?
-
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and I think what you do which
I quite like is, not try to take
-
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all of those misconceptions apart
but to tell the coherent story
-
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sort of calmly from the
beginning, and try not to
-
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be distracted by that
-
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(David speaking) Well good that
is what I try to do and I'm glad
-
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that it seems like a good
tactic to you Jeff.
-
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I mean there are a couple
of places where it would have been
-
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possible to just stop and
give readers a lecture on how
-
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important bats are and
they are beneficial to our
-
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ecosystems and they
deserve to live and you
-
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shouldn't demonize them
and they pollinate plants
-
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and they eat a lot of insects
and things and I mean
-
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I have written a lot of that
kind of thing in other books
-
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and in other places, and it just
seemed to me maybe
-
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I'm mistaken in this, but
it just seemed to be so obvious
-
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that those things. That to
a reasonably intelligent reader
-
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I didn't want to bring the
narrative and the science explanation
-
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to a halt in order to
give that particular ecological lecture
-
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so I didn't, and essentially I let
the facts speak for themselves
-
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(Jeff speaking) I would say its a good
choice not to everyone, but
-
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not to entirely change the subject,
but what you can do, in telling
-
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those stories in 500 pages of "Spillover"
is an awful lot different
-
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than what you could do in a 5 minute
video on the weather channel
-
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right? And we have both
of these and they are
-
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very different ways
of telling the stories
-
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and I think the book appeals
to me more but I can see
-
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a lot of value in the videos,
but do you have anything
-
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you want to say about what
you give up being having to
-
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work within those 5 minute videos?
-
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(David speaking) Well sure
Yes, I mean this
-
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series of videos "Virus Hunters"
is now up on
-
Not Synced
weather.com produced
by some very good filmmakers
-
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at the weather channel
and they came to me
-
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I guess last fall
through my agent and said
-
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we would like to make a series
of short films, about what
-
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you write about in the book
about some of the facts
-
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and ideas and characters of "Spillover"
-
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and they said, when we say
short films we mean short
-
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this is what is happening now
with media very short
-
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but well produced, dramatic
films for streaming on the web
-
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4, 5, 6 minutes long.
we want to do 6 of these
-
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6 episodes. So I saw
some of their other work and
-
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it was careful, it was responsible
and it was also dramatic
-
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and effective. I saw a couple
of episodes they made about
-
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conservation biologists and field
biologists that I know
-
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and I thought they did a very
good job of capturing some important
-
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things in that little cameo form
so I said yes lets do this
-
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and I was involved with them
in terms of developing contacts
-
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and helping them with ideas
and
-
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ground truthing some
of their early versions
-
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and helping them
correct things that needed
-
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to be corrected. And I
think I'm listed as an
-
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executive producer in that vain. But I
didn't write the scripts
-
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They wrote the scripts
I helped correct those
-
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so yes you give up a lot
to reach a different
-
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particular kind of audience
in a different way
-
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if I were to start from
scratch and say
-
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well I want to produce a
television series based
-
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on "Spillover" I would
not say and I want each
-
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episode to be 6 minutes long.
-
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(Joanne speaking) Yeah (Jeff speaking) Mhm.
-
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(David speaking) and that was an
opportunity of a particular sort
-
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presented to me so I said
well lets explore this
-
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and see if we can do it
in a way that's useful and
-
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doesn't trivialize these
diseases and these people
-
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and these topics and if we
can do that then I'm happy to
-
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proceed. They showed me you
could do that, and you give up an
-
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awful lot of but little slices
that you get I think have a
-
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particular value in the form
that they were in
-
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(Joanne speaking) Right, well I
thought that they were fantastic
-
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would it be okay if we
go to some of our viewer
-
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questions?
-
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(David speaking) Absolutely. Yeah.
-
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(Joanne speaking) Okay, well we've
got one here saying
-
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do you vaccinating primates against
disease like Ebola could help
-
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prevent outbreaks?
-
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(David speaking) well vaccinating
wild animals is always tough
-
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it is just difficult logistically.
But its not a crazy idea
-
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it has been considered and
work has been done towards
-
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developing a vaccine against
Ebola that could somehow be given
-
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to Gorillas and chimps in
central Africa because
-
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we haven't talked about this
but its in the book
-
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Ebola turns out to be devastating
not just to humans but also to
-
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gorillas and chimps and there
are some people who believe
-
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Ebola has been spreading
through gorilla populations
-
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in central Africa, killing thousands or
tens of thousands of gorillas
-
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over recent decades
-
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there are areas of wonderful
gorilla habitat in central
-
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Africa, for instance in Gabon
that these areas of wonderful
-
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gorilla habitat that are empty
of gorillas
-
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and I walked through
one of those areas for
-
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ten days on a national geographic
assignment some years ago
-
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with a fellow who was censusing
wildlife, looking for gorillas
-
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among other things
-
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and in ten days of walking
we found sign of, hundreds and
-
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hundreds of sings of forest
elephant and other creatures that
-
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were alive and well in that forest
and zero sign of gorilla
-
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what was the reason?
-
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Well the probable reason was
that Ebola had killed those gorillas
-
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difficult to prove
but strong inferential hypothesis
-
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so some of the wildlife conservation
people including veterinarians
-
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have been researching the possibility
of using some sort of bating system
-
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putting out food that is, that
contains an Ebola vaccine to try
-
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and stop the spread, the chain of
transmission of this disease in
-
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gorilla populations and the
devastation that they cause
-
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so as I say it is difficult to do
difficult to vaccinate wild animals
-
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how do you get to every one of them
how do you get to enough of them
-
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you don't go running through the forest
tranquilizing gorillas and
-
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giving them injections you have to
do something that is more effective
-
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than that, so people are thinking about it
people are working
-
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on it.
-
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(Joanne speaking) So that is actually a
really good answer, so here is
-
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something that is interesting
This comes to probably humans
-
Not Synced
affecting our environment, this
is actually about global warming
-
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which there are whole books written
about how global warming
-
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is affecting our ??? But this is
interesting. That global warming
-
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being all too evident, and the
glaciers and ice caps melting
-
Not Synced
what is the probability that
an ancient virus or bacteria
-
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that has been frozen, thawing out
and being re-introduced into the world?
-
Not Synced
This is not exactly Zoonosis but,
you have become an accidental expert
-
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by writing the book
-
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(David speaking). Yeah..Right. Well a
virus frozen in glaciers?
-
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Well viruses only survive in living cells.
So if an animal is frozen for
-
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ten thousand years, is it
possible for a virus in that animal
-
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to be reactivated?
I suppose that it is
-
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And if I'm wrong I'm sure
people will correct me
-
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immediately on that one
but thats my off the top
-
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of my head recollection response
-
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It might be possible.
-
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(Joanne speaking) Yeah I'd not
heard this before so
-
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(Micheal speaking) Yeah, well
you know we know that you
-
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can get ancient DNA out of
a creature, even a human being
-
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that has been frozen for ten
thousand years
-
Not Synced
it might be possible to wake
up a virus that has been
-
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frozen in cells of such creature
-
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whether that is something
worth worryin about is
-
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a different question.
-
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I mean there are a lot of reasons
to be concerned about climate change
-
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global warming I wouldn't put
that near the top of the list
-
Not Synced
because there are so many
other viruses that aren't frozen
-
Not Synced
that we are coming in contact with
-
Not Synced
Some people estimate that
every species of plant, animal,
-
Not Synced
fungus, bacterium, on the plant
probably is a unique host of at least
-
Not Synced
one virus, maybe ten viruses,
these are very very rough
-
Not Synced
ballpark guess.
-
Not Synced
So that you don't need
to go to a mammoth thawing
-
Not Synced
out of the ice in northern
Canada that might be carrying
-
Not Synced
a new virus in order to
be exposed to a new virus
-
Not Synced
all you need to do is walk across
central Africa and turn over
-
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a couple of rocks and
eat a fish and touch a turtle
-
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and be shat upon by a bat
to be exposed to new viruses
-
Not Synced
(Joanne speaking) or fruit.
-
Not Synced
(David speaking) Yeah, or eat
a piece of fruit that a bat has licked.
-
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(Jeff speaking) well our mother's
were right when
-
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"Don't touch that turtle! You'll
never know where its been!"
-
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(David speaking) That's right.
-
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(Joanne speaking) Well and infectors like
mosquitoes, their habitat is
-
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increasing with warmer climates
so that infector born disease is
-
Not Synced
not necessarily zoonotic but you did
address that as far as Malaria
-
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like how it may have originated in
a different animal that it didn't
-
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just evolve
-
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(David speaking) Yeah, well yeah.
That is what I think of when
-
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the potential impacts of climate
change in terms of infectious disease
-
Not Synced
and in terms of zoonotic disease
in particular
-
Not Synced
I mean now we've got
don't we have west nile fever
-
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in all of the 48 contiguous states?
I think we do and
-
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what's the reason for that?
Well one of the reasons for that is
-
Not Synced
there are mosquitoes that are vectors
for west nile virus that are surviving
-
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through the winters in places
where they did not use to survive
-
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through the winters
-
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(Joanne speaking) Yes, yes. Right.
Well it is amazing.
-
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This last, there is one more question here
from our readers.
-
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This one you can modify to answer
the way that you see fit
-
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he is asking, "What are the top two
mistakes that humanity has made
-
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by in large, historically speaking,
when its been hit by a pandemic?"
-
Not Synced
So I suppose you could answer
just one.
-
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(David speaking) You've got to remember
this is from Hugo right?
-
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(Joanne Speaking) Yes.
-
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(David Speaking) Interesting question
Hugo.
-
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Well, the mistakes that we make
have changed over time
-
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For instance, in the late 19th
century in America
-
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when people came down with
smallpox. We would put them
-
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in pest houses.
-
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And in particular if they
were poor, and came from
-
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tenements and slums. We would
drag them out of those tenements
-
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and slums. Officials would. City or
state officals
-
Not Synced
and would confine those people
in pest houses
-
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and these pest houses then
became wonderful places
-
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of transmission if you were
a suspected case, but not confirmed
-
Not Synced
and you were confined in a pest house
the chances are that you would become
-
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a confirmed case fairly quickly.
-
Not Synced
That sort of response
that the idea that infectious
-
Not Synced
diesases were endemic to
the poor people
-
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was a horrible mistake
but it was a common mistake
-
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the idea that poor people
because their hygiene standards were
-
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not high enough. That they
were particularly susceptible to
-
Not Synced
these disease and therefore the
way to deal with these diesases
-
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was some sort of a
public health apartheid
-
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that was a horrible mistake
that was made with
-
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severe consequences in this
country and a number of other
-
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places. In terms of mistakes
that we are making now
-
Not Synced
Well one potential mistake
is related to that
-
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its the notion that
the way to deal with these
-
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diseases is to confine people
to shut down movement
-
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to treat the disease
as a form of guilt
-
Not Synced
you know we saw that
in the early stages of
-
Not Synced
the AIDS pandemic in the US
that also occured in Cuba
-
Not Synced
where people who were HIV
positive were, well I don't want to
-
Not Synced
say more than I
actually know
-
Not Synced
but in Cuba there was
there were some harsh measures
-
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towards people that were
HIV positive
-
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in terms of segregating them
from the general population
-
Not Synced
With Ebola, currently
there is this outbreak in Guinea
-
Not Synced
and they are trying to stop it
but I noticed that the
-
Not Synced
world health organization has
not recommended restrictions
-
Not Synced
on travel. Guinea. Why
is that?
-
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Well its been explained
that if they invoke
-
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restrictions on travel and
force confinement of possible cases
-
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you're going to drive the disease
underground. And people
-
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are going to be afraid to
go to clinics if they think
-
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they might have the disease.
Because they'll be treated as
-
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guilty they'll be treated as
prisoners. So generally
-
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I guess what I'm saying is
one of the worst mistakes
-
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that we've made is
confusion of being infected
-
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with being guilty of something
and the forms of
-
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social segregation and constraint
that followed after that
-
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and we've mostly gotten past
that but its something we've got to be
-
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very careful about
-
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(Jeff speaking) This is something that
we sort of talked about, but I made
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a not of this. As you were talking
about how these outbreaks of these
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various zoonotic incidents might
be seen as independent
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disconnected, perhaps judgmental
things said to point out the varoius
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groups of people as causing
this or that
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and in fact they are
related there is a pattern
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there are things we can understand,
and its a natural event
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and it can be pretty hard to keep
our prejudices even for scientists
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out of understanding what's going
on right?
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(David speaking) That's right.
We can demonize the victims, we can
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demonize the reservoir hosts,
we can demonize anybody associated
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with these things and that does not
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lead us either to better understanding
or to better response to these things
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I think the way I put it in
the book is that
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there is a tendency of people,
for the public to think that
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this drumbeat of new diseases,
Ebola, and Machupo, and Hendra
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and Nepo, and SARS, and Bird Flu
and MERS, and a number of others
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that this drumbeat of new
diseases represent things that
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are happening to us. Independent
forms of misfortune that are happening
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to us, and the point that I try
to bring out in the book is that
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these are not merely things that
are happening to us
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these are reflections of things
that we are doing
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they are part of an
interconnected pattern that
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relates to our activities,
how we live together and how
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we live with other species
on this planet
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(Jeff speaking) yeah, and that things are
different when that's the
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habitat destruction, and how we can
do all of these things
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when there are only say,
500 million people on the earth
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versus when there are 7
billion people on the earth
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(David speaking) That's right and some of
this, the scientists would call
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this density dependent effects
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The fact that if somebody gets
sick from eating a wild animal at
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a restaurant in southern China
and that person picks up a virus
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and that person goes to a wedding
in Hong Kong, and stays in a
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hotel and coughs or
sneezes in the elevator and
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some woman from Toronto can
walk into that elevator
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pick up that virus and
that virus will travel around
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the world in about 14 hours
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that is a new situation
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(Joanne speaking) That is sort of the
plot for Contagion.
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So I'm looking like we are at
the end of our show
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and its been wonderful to talk
with you David and I really
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hope our audience here
if you have not picked up
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"Spillover" and you're up
for a nice book
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Its got technical depth
its an engaging story
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because you have personalities
its not just a review paper
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on every type of zoonotic disease
its really an engaging story
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(David speaking) its full of detective
stories, I like to say.
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(Joanne speaking) Yeah, it is like
a detective story
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this is great, which makes
the 500 pages go by fast
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it is one of the ones
that is hard to put down
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which is always helpful
with a big book
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and I really enjoyed it
I also listend to it on
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audio, I would switch
back between book and audio
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and you had a great narrator
for this too
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So, is there anything
else you would like to add
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that maybe we forgot to ask you
David before we sign off?
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(David speaking) Be safe. Travel well.
Stay healthy. And don't eat the monkeys.
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(Joanne speaking) Don't eat the (laughing)
Yes. we have one last story
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Jeff has a website called
Scienticity and his website has
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a mascot. And its related
to you David
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(Jeff speaking) Yep. The Scienticity
mascot is an American crow
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and the reason that we thought
the crow was an entirely suitable
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animal was largely based on
or largely inspired by your article
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from long ago called something like
our crows a product of their own success
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or Has success spoiled the crow?
In which you describe many of the anticts
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(David speaking) yeah I remember that
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(Jeff speaking) and things they get
up to, basically you posited
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because they're bored.
and I found very appealing
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that idea that crows are just
out to learn new things
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and have new experiences
and I'll say about "Spillover" that
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I enjoy reading it at that rate
and I think it exposes, it proceeds
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in a way that parallels the way
science works and unfolds
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and that's something that
I always look for as a mark of a
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good science book. So
congratulations on that.
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(David speaking) Well thank you. Thank you
both very much. Its been a real pleasure
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to talk to you, I've enjoyed this and I
appreciate the interest in the book
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and the ideas.
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(Joanne speaking) Great. Well thank you
David so much and thank you Jeff
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as always its a pleasure to
sit here with you
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and Thank you to everybody
who watched and turned in
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questions, and we will
see you again next time
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on Read Science.